[00:00:54] *** Quits: vishwin60 (~chatzilla@wikimedia/O) (Remote host closed the connection) [01:38:11] *** Quits: majora (~majora@205.204.23.189) (Quit: Leaving) [04:27:39] *** Quits: wolfcore (~wolfcore@unaffiliated/wolfcore) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) [04:37:29] *** Joins: wolfcore (~wolfcore@unaffiliated/wolfcore) [11:55:53] *** sivoais is now known as sivoais-ms [12:41:31] *** Joins: majora (~majora@205.204.23.189) [12:41:31] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v majora [12:41:49] iangcarroll arirawr did we decide on a time and day for the next meeting yet? [13:03:53] arirawr hasn't said anything about Sunday [13:07:14] rip [13:07:29] are you fb friends with her? [13:07:32] can you PM her? [13:11:01] yeah [15:06:48] *** sivoais-ms is now known as sivoais [15:17:14] what should we do about this thread arirawr iangcarroll gsingh93 [15:17:15] Title: Log into Facebook | Facebook [15:18:02] I think the way Max and Dan responded was quite unnecessary [15:20:10] I mean it's not exactly against the policy what the guy posted but I feel it isn't the best post ever [15:21:07] actually he is straight up asking for the solution but we have no way of inferring from his original post if he's asking for personal study, but when you read the comments it's quite apparent it isn't [15:22:58] also that post wasn't reported by anyone I just saw it while browsing [15:23:05] really looking for comments from anyone lmao [15:27:35] i don't think I'd do anything atm [15:28:39] weird that dan didn't see his reply to the first comment, but I don't think it's really breaking any rules [15:29:08] I think in the future straight up asking for homework questions should be frowned upon [15:29:12] it's one thing to ask for help [15:29:14] but [15:29:27] "just give me the solution please" is not okay [15:31:34] fair enough [15:31:38] i'll add that to the agenda [15:31:44] along with gsingh93's things [15:40:36] btw gsingh93, is your deletion log thing solved by us enabling the /delete hackbot command? [15:43:18] iangcarroll: no, because mods don't have to use it [15:43:57] well, there is no better solution really [15:44:04] you have a point of trust somewhere [15:44:32] yea, but i'd prefer the point of trust to be with the infra mantainer [15:44:42] someone who can't delete posts [15:46:55] kk [16:25:03] wait [16:25:10] why don't we just enforce saying it in the IRC [16:25:12] where shit is logged [16:32:23] lol [16:40:13] saying what? [16:42:10] also, can someone get that github bot back up? [16:43:13] like if we're going to delete something just state the reason in IRC [16:43:36] if it's already logged no need to do something else [16:59:06] github bot? [17:01:38] sivoais: there used to be a bot that posted here if there were any new PRs/issues [17:02:00] majora: this is a different threat model we're talking about here [17:02:20] i.e. an admin wants to delete something but doesn't want to tell anyone [17:02:45] and a user accuses an admin of deleting something and not telling anyone (when the user deleted the content, not the admin) [17:03:17] well just elect responsible admins [17:05:04] no bias there :p [17:05:21] but there is the problem of a user easily framing an admin [17:05:47] yueah but I'm not gonna download an extension just for htis [17:05:49] lmao [17:06:42] just delete a post you've made (perhaps about unfair moderation to make it believable), say you didn't do it, and the admins are now in a tough spot [17:07:37] I guess that's why the admins need to be elected and trusted by the people [17:08:01] though we should probably discuss this at the meeting and not now :p [17:08:20] well we don't have a date for the meeting [17:08:38] waiting for ari to come online, presumably tonight [17:08:40] which is kind of really bullshit because we've been talking about this since Monday at least [17:08:54] gsingh93: i think we enabled the IRC notifications, but I guess they aren't working? iangcarroll? [17:09:09] we need to enable more events, I think [17:09:21] so that comments and pushes all get recorded [17:09:23] majora: 95% of the time that works [17:09:37] some of the time you're going to get it wrong [17:09:44] especially when the group grows and more admins are needed [17:09:51] yeah I agree [17:10:15] the problem is, even if this rarely happens, when it happens it'll be important [17:10:37] (this was a big problem in HH according to dave) [17:10:40] but I also think it should be a rule that more than like 50% of the admins must agree a post warrants deletion and the discussion must be done in RC [17:10:51] s/RC/IRC [17:10:51] majora probably meant: but I also think it should be a rule that more than like 50% of the admins must agree a post warrants deletion and the discussion must be done in IRC [17:10:52] majora: agreed, but that's a separate issue [17:11:07] but then that would fix that issue since the deletion would be discussed in IRC [17:11:14] and if it wasn't discussed the user wasn't trolling [17:11:17] sorry [17:11:21] was trolling* [17:11:37] it fixes the issue if all the admins follow the rules [17:11:53] again, that's something we can assume the majority of the time, but not all the time [17:11:57] and again, there's the framing issue [17:12:06] the admins are human beings [17:12:12] who feel strongly on different issues [17:12:17] elections are not perfect [17:12:34] there will be people who may feel very strongly on some issues and want to censor [17:12:38] this is a protection for when that happens [17:12:44] well then they're a shitty admin [17:12:47] and should resign [17:12:49] yes [17:12:51] yes [17:12:57] >should [17:13:02] but I do see what you're saying [17:13:08] I just think it's rather unavoidable [17:13:17] what's unavoidable? [17:13:46] let me rephrase that [17:14:26] I don't see how we can develop a system that say someone knows I'm sensitive about my hockey team and they like make some post related to that and it's somehow relevant and they delete it and try to place blame on me [17:14:53] how is there a system of moderation that FB allows that would have the burden lifted from me without users trusting that I'm not a total shit head [17:14:54] lmao [17:14:55] do you mean from a technical standpoint? [17:15:04] yes [17:15:16] well, it would work similarly to how /close works now [17:15:24] hackbot gets to see every single post that's made [17:15:31] oh wait [17:15:45] so this would solve half of the issues [17:15:58] but i think it would help on the accountability one [17:16:00] so for example [17:16:13] if multiple posts are disappearing [17:16:18] and no admins say they deleted it [17:16:33] either there's a user trying to frame admins [17:16:37] or there's an admin doing it [17:16:40] yup [17:16:47] now based on the content of the posts [17:16:52] that were deleted [17:17:04] there is probably a very obvious pattern [17:17:13] based on the users who posted [17:17:22] or [17:17:45] i could not even make the post in the first place, claim I made multiple moderation-related complaints, and that they were all deleted. [17:18:05] so we just want something like hackit.edward.io? [17:18:07] though something logging everything would help to a degree [17:18:13] how could you "not make the post"? [17:18:41] if everything is being logged the same scenario applies but they would be posted and deletion would be done by the user themselves [17:19:37] so we should just comission a hackit clone [17:20:15] maybe something like that, but it's not exactly what we want [17:20:27] so what i really want i guess [17:20:36] is some way to do data analysis [17:20:46] i.e., posts by a particular user are being deleted [17:20:50] what times are they being deleted at [17:20:52] pretty much that [17:20:59] and which threads and all that [17:21:14] so, we use a stats model that any user can see and still use to frame the admins :p [17:21:19] hmm [17:21:21] yea [17:21:24] it'll be tough [17:21:40] also, majora, regarding the extension, that's unrelated to this [17:21:46] oh my bad [17:21:56] that's just because every admin should know how other admins handle reported posts [17:22:14] i.e. someone complains to me that they reported a post and it wasn't handled [17:22:20] but someone else handled it [17:22:23] i have no idea what happened [17:22:28] this would keep a log of that [17:22:45] and this is something where i would trust the admin to not mess with the extension [17:22:55] i just want to know whats going on is more the purpose [17:24:36] fair enough [17:24:46] but that person could just hop into IRC [17:24:49] and see what's going on [17:25:09] majora: that doesn't scale [17:25:24] certain major things can be posted in IRC, that's fine [17:25:52] but there are going to be a ton of posts that aren't worth posting on IRC, but should still be logged so everyone knows who and how they were dealt with [17:26:01] not to mention dealing with things on mobile [17:26:10] hhmm [17:26:19] well HH didn't have that many posts that it didn't scale well [17:26:31] even with 20k members that much moderation wasn't an issue [17:26:51] and I personally do not use FB on mobile so I wouldn't be modding on mobile but I do see that problem [17:26:59] a mod could still use IRC on mobile though [17:27:12] as could a user [17:28:11] yea, IRC on mobile is an option [17:28:18] it's just a bit more work [17:28:24] as well as having the discussion itself on mobile [17:28:38] I mean it's no less challenging than using slack or messenger on mobile imo [17:28:39] i think one benefit on logging though [17:28:50] majora: yea, but for example [17:28:54] this discussion right now [17:28:58] is something i wouldn't do on mobile [17:29:37] well say I'm a mod and we need 50%+ to remove something and no on responds then it just waits [17:29:58] ? [17:30:07] hmm hang on let me gather my thoughts [17:30:10] how's that related to logging? [17:30:30] anyway, my other point was that knowing how other admins are dealing with certain posts will help you deal with certain posts [17:30:49] well if enforce IRC as our point of communication and since the IRC is being logged it is searchable [17:31:04] i.e. oh, iangcarroll let this post go through with any moderation yesterday, this post is similar to that, so it should be fine [17:31:04] but I think post based logging via the fb API is good too [17:31:15] yeah fair enough [17:31:18] or on the other hand, you might disagree with ian's decision [17:31:22] :( [17:31:23] and then you can come to IRC and talk about it [17:31:46] i guess it's kind of a model to say, for anything that's minor and we can deal with without discussion, just deal with it [17:31:56] and then if someone does something wrong (accidently), talk about it [17:32:25] yeah I see your point and agree [17:33:11] cool [17:33:15] i need to get back to work :P [17:44:40] enjoy [18:54:07] *** Quits: majora (~majora@205.204.23.189) (Quit: Leaving)